<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1499</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/15/99 10:55:13 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 15 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1499<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Similarity and Aggression<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
RE: Gun Control<BR>
RE: Photosynthesis<BR>
Guns and Cultural Differences<BR>
Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
That reminds me ... (was Re: Gossip and porno ...)<BR>
Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
RE: Velocity/Vector<BR>
RE: Cutting the Carotid<BR>
RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: Just testing...<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: Just testing...<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
Adventures with Security Folks<BR>
RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:11:42 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Similarity and Aggression<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant writes:<BR>
>Smegging right it's flamebait! Excuse me, but<BR>
>similarity with small differences causes more violence<BR>
>than _great_ differences. Just look at the<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>It may be psychologically and socially _easier_ to<BR>
>kill those who are very very different, but the<BR>
>differences can often cause puzzlement rather than<BR>
>aggression. Aggression comes from offence at their<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	As someone pointed out, similar cultures tend to be<BR>
	physically close, which makes direct conflict much easier.<BR>
	I would also suggest that a culture that is very similar<BR>
	to yours can be more threatening: a Budist in a Christian<BR>
	parish is probably less likely to convert people away from<BR>
	the local church than a rival Christian denomination.  That<BR>
	being said, we Terrans have a long, sad, history of picking<BR>
	out the most different among us for "special" treatment.<BR>
<BR>
>Similarity, and understanding one another, can cause<BR>
>hideous conflict.I quote Douglas Adams, "and thus the<BR>
>poor Babel Fish, by enabling every species in the<BR>
>universe to communicate with one another, went on to<BR>
>be responsible formore wars and genocide than any<BR>
>other thing in history."<BR>
<BR>
	One of my favorite quotes from that series.  So, how does all<BR>
	this bear on relations between Humaniti and Vargr, Aslan, etc.?<BR>
	I could see a tendency to treat other species as less than<BR>
	human (pests, vermin, cute wildlife, curiosities), but treat<BR>
	humans with rival philosophies with real aggression.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:11:49 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, cos 90 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Let's not give NASA too much credit here. NASA is a great example of now<BR>
> NOT to run a space program -- it's so over-laden with bureaucracy that <BR>
> anything it does is inefficient and costs way too much. The typical space<BR>
> shuttle launch has a ground crew in the neighbourhood of 20,000 people.<BR>
> <BR>
> If transatlantic plane service were run like the shuttle program, there <BR>
> would be one flight per month, there would be delays of several days if<BR>
> there was so much as one little thing wrong at startup, and a ticket would<BR>
> cost a million dollars.<BR>
> <BR>
> I say it's time for private enterprise to get into the game.<BR>
<BR>
BOLLOCKS!<BR>
<BR>
If it were so easy, private enterprise would be doing it _now_. There's a<BR>
huge backlog of satellite launch needs, and no one is filling them.<BR>
There's a bucketload of money to be made there it's just that, well, it<BR>
_really_ is rocket science.<BR>
<BR>
NASA does things the way they do because they're primarily a R&D<BR>
organization, something that modern MBA's have been trained to believe is<BR>
somehow an uneccesary expense, and a definite hindrance to tomorrows PL<BR>
statements. In a business environment where 'long-term planning' means<BR>
scheduling a meeting next Monday, we're gonna be stuck on this dirtball<BR>
forever.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:14:26 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
Can we please avoid the gun control topic?  There are extremely divided<BR>
views on the subject here on the TML, as out there in the real world.<BR>
Can't we all just get along?  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:26:12 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Photosynthesis<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
>>From Life, the science of biology (Purves et al, 1992):<BR>
>>"Here we discuss pigments that play roles in<BR>
>>photosynthesis... Of these, the most important are the<BR>
>>chlorophylls." "...all photosynthetic organisms possess<BR>
>>accessory pigments that absorb photons intermediate in<BR>
>>energy between the red and blue and then transfer a<BR>
>>portion of the energy to chlorophyll..."  Interestingly<BR>
>>enough, while all known Terran photosynthetic organisms<BR>
>>have accessory pigments (such as carotenoids and<BR>
>>phycobilins), not all of them have chlorophyll.<BR>
>>Photosynthetic halobacteria use a derivative of retinol,<BR>
>>called bacteriorhodopsin, rather than chlorophyll.<BR>
>Ok, that tells me something I didn't know. *But*, it also says<BR>
>that they *transfer* the energy to Chlorophyll. My guess would<BR>
>be that they act like the phosphors in fluorescent tubes and<BR>
>absorb certain wavelengths and re-emit them at others more<BR>
>suitable.<BR>
<BR>
	Good guess, but incorrect.  They transfer electrons to the<BR>
	chlorophyll.<BR>
<BR>
>So they *aid* photosynthesis, but don't do it. The<BR>
>bacteriorhodopsin is a different matter.<BR>
<BR>
	You are arguing semantics.  By some definitions, one might<BR>
	exclude the activity of bacteriorhodopsin since it doesn't<BR>
	produce chemical reduction (only ATP), but I have no problem<BR>
	with including bacteriorhodopsin and carotenoids as pigments<BR>
	involved in photosynthesis.<BR>
		My original quote: "Chlorophyll is the most important<BR>
		photosynthetic pigment found here on Terra, but there<BR>
		are other pigments involved in many species."<BR>
<BR>
>What I meant was that it's more important that there be enough<BR>
>energy at wavelengths the pigment can use, than what the overal<BR>
>frequency composition is, and it's *especially* not that important<BR>
>where the emission peak is. <BR>
>*Efficiency* at converting available light into sugar is more<BR>
>important than sensitivity to specific wavelengths.<BR>
<BR>
	The plant still needs to interact with the light that is<BR>
	available on that world.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:43:59 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Guns and Cultural Differences<BR>
<BR>
<sniff sniff> What's that smell?  Smells like burning gunpowder...Ah!  It<BR>
must be time for the annual TML 2nd Amendment Flamefest! :-)<BR>
<BR>
I normally try not to perpetuate OT threads, but I just wanted to point<BR>
out that explanations of differences in violence levels between countries<BR>
based on differences in cultural mixes don't really wash.  Canada is one<BR>
of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world and we have fairly<BR>
low levels of violence.  This despite cultural differences both overt<BR>
(Toronto has large numbers of both black and white people, Vancouver a<BR>
similar situation with asian immigrants) and subtle (Montreal has French<BR>
and English populations who also differ denominationally).  None of these<BR>
groups goes about shooting one another, however. <BR>
<BR>
One might argue that population density or weather has something to do<BR>
with differences in levels of violence, but comparing Toronto to Detroit<BR>
puts the lie to this. Both cities have about the same climate (being just<BR>
across a straight from one another) and both have roughly the same<BR>
population.  Yet Detroit has roughly 10 times the murder rate. <BR>
<BR>
Something I'd be interested in knowing, if anyone has the stats, is what<BR>
the "gun density" of different countries/cities is, and how this relates<BR>
to levels of violence.  I'm not talking about restrictiveness of gun laws<BR>
here, but number of guns per person.  The more common guns are, the more<BR>
difficult it becomes for laws to keep them out of the hands of criminals.<BR>
Consider for argument's sake the case where guns are as common as blades<BR>
of grass: no laws could prevent anyone who wanted one from obtaining one. <BR>
I have a feeling this is the problem in the US, though admittedly it's<BR>
just and intuition... <BR>
<BR>
Charles C. (whose next post will be on-topic, promise!)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:51:31 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
<BR>
Just to throw my two cents in here I use a system where emergence from<BR>
jump causes one's vector direction to be randomized.  This is a<BR>
side-effect of the energy put into the jump.  The length of the vector<BR>
stays the same relative to the point of jump entry, so it's generally in<BR>
one's best interest to slow down before jumping.  This minimizes the<BR>
variability of the time it will take to intercept the world one is headed<BR>
to.  The randomization of the vector also attenuates the "near-c" rock<BR>
problem, whereby ships which retain their vectors in any predictable way<BR>
could jump in on high-speed collision courses with enemy worlds.  <BR>
<BR>
This is my favorite solution as it does little violence to physics and<BR>
helps nix near-c rocks. <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:51:39 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: That reminds me ... (was Re: Gossip and porno ...)<BR>
<BR>
This topic reminds me of my first Traveller game. One of my players -- a<BR>
merchant -- made his fortune by speculative trade in pornography and other<BR>
sexual "aids" with belters, miners, and other isolated groups of men and<BR>
women with few options for local entertainment.<BR>
<BR>
That was an interesting campaign, with this one player's dealings pulling<BR>
the entire group into a conflict with a seedy criminal ring that was<BR>
squeezing "protection" money out of honest suppliers of bedroom<BR>
entertainment.<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller trade rules (from CT and MT) weren't quite up to the task of<BR>
assessing values on such trade goods, but I faked it and it turned out<BR>
okay. [I now own Far Trader but haven't delved into it -- would the rules<BR>
in that book be up to the task?]<BR>
<BR>
This was before I discovered Traveller was supposed to have a "PG-13"<BR>
rating or less from the Motion Picture Association of America. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:52:37 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
<BR>
>Any Traveller game or campaign I ever try to run is going to prove to be<BR>
>too ridiculous to survive.<BR>
<BR>
But it would probably be an incredibly fun way not to survive something. As<BR>
a player, of course. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:55:43 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Velocity/Vector<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>I was just trying to make sure that folks understood that<BR>
>conserving velocity relative to *different* objects *was*<BR>
>"bending physics".<BR>
>I can accept people bending or breaking the laws of physics in<BR>
>games or stories. But only if they *know* they are breaking<BR>
>them, and have thought things thru. Otherwise, the law of<BR>
>unintended consequences tends to jump out and bite you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
	I agree, but if you're playing Traveller (at least CT), <BR>
	you've already been bit.  :)<BR>
<BR>
>>>Don't forget that the time you spend in jump *varies*.<BR>
>>That is what most people assume.  I allow some variation,<BR>
>>but not anything like a day.<BR>
>It's in the rules, at least some editions allow for bout that<BR>
>much variation.<BR>
<BR>
	I have never seen this in CT (which does not mean that it<BR>
	isn't there), but I've never worried too much about following<BR>
	every rule to the letter.  I don't know what rules Josh<BR>
	Spencer uses, so I tried to avoid making any assumptions.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I'm making the (reasonable, in my opinion) assumption that<BR>
>you "aim" your jump for a specific *location*. That is, you in<BR>
>effect tell the computer, we want to go *this* distance, in *that*<BR>
>direction. And if you don't misjump, you exit jump at the target<BR>
>point plus/minus a bit for uncontrollable "random" factors.<BR>
<BR>
	Well, I'm making the (reasonable, in my opinion) assumption<BR>
	that you "aim" your jump along a specific jump-space<BR>
	trajectory.  That is, you calculate what "direction" you need<BR>
	to go in jump-space to get to a given location (given the<BR>
	current distribution of masses in real-space) and tell the<BR>
	computer (that's what the navigator does).  If you don't<BR>
	missjump, you exit at the target point plus/minus a lot for<BR>
	uncontrolled factors.<BR>
<BR>
>This fits in fairly well with Mark Miller's statements that if<BR>
>your jump "line" intersects the 100 diameter limit of anything<BR>
>between your entry to jump and your planned exit, you pop out of<BR>
>jump there.<BR>
<BR>
	I am glad that Mr. Miller didn't put this in CT (AFAIK), as<BR>
	I dislike it.  IMTU, there is nothing between jump entry<BR>
	and jump exit, regardless of what may be between the two<BR>
	points in real-space.<BR>
<BR>
>He hasn't answered my question about *when* you pop out of jump.<BR>
>You see, if you work it out, there could be a planet in the way<BR>
>for only a few hours. So it matters if those few hours occur when<BR>
>the ship is in that part of the jump.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Sticky problem, I have no useful ideas.  Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
>Whatever way folks decide to handle things, it needs to be<BR>
>*logical*. Not merely arbritary decision stacked on top of<BR>
>arbtrary decision. That leads you into situations where you<BR>
>have to make more and more arbitrary decisions because *previous*<BR>
>decision have logical consequences that contradict each other.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	IMHO, the arbitrary decisions have already been made: the<BR>
	Traveller rules.  I try to be as logical as I can while<BR>
	remaining consistent with my interpretation of those rules<BR>
	(and a buch of tweeks).  Fortunately, IMTU, jump physics is<BR>
	an area with few consequences for anything other that<BR>
	jumping ships (an exception is teleportation, which I regard<BR>
	as a form of jump).  This allows me some latitude in setting<BR>
	laws that will not mess up the universe much more than it<BR>
	already is.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:01:00 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Cutting the Carotid<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>>It's long enough to cut the jugular. What move do you need?<BR>
>Just sharpness and skill.  Actually the carotid is a better<BR>
>target (it's an artery, so more blood will be lost more quickly<BR>
>leading to quicker unconsciousness and death, as opposed to the<BR>
>jugular, which is a vein).<BR>
<BR>
	A lot of people have never heard of the carotid artery, so<BR>
	probably think that the jugular vein brings blood to the<BR>
	brain.<BR>
<BR>
>Both are protected by slippery and thick sheaths (I've forgotten<BR>
>what they call the stuff that surrounds blood vessels -- myolin<BR>
>or something), so a very sharp blade is essential.  You also have<BR>
>to know where to cut.<BR>
<BR>
	I am not familiar with the sheaths that you describe, but<BR>
	it's not myolin (that surrounds nerves).  Perhaps Robert<BR>
	O'Connor could enlighten us.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:17:45 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> At 10:55 AM 12/14/1999 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >	Apparently you had much fun. I noticed that there is one major<BR>
> >	difference between the weapons used in Oregon and those we use<BR>
> >	in Finland. Because of local regulations are encouraged (not<BR>
> >	required yet) to use suppressors (because guns cause "noise<BR>
> >	pollution"). Currently all my guns (except a Benelli M3 shotgun)<BR>
> >	are suppressed.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Gun Club was way out in the middle of nowhere.. the only building<BR>
> nearby was one poor farmer.<BR>
> <BR>
> Even at that we were restricted to suppressed or pistol <BR>
> calibre up until<BR>
> 1000hrs. <BR>
<BR>
Also, remember, in the US a suppressor is regulated just like a<BR>
fully-automatic firearm or destructive device ($200 tax, 6 month background<BR>
check, local LEO permission, not valid in all states).  Yep, a metal pipe<BR>
with washers in it - all by itself - is deemed by law a weapon as dangerous<BR>
as a machine gun or a grenade.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:26:25 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kyle Schuant [mailto:kyle3054@yahoo.com]<BR>
<BR>
> Finland, what a glorious nations, where the most<BR>
> repressive gun laws are noise pollution laws! Wow! And<BR>
> yet their murder rate is lower than California's? I<BR>
> wonder why?<BR>
> Come to think of it, hot nations tend to be more<BR>
> violent than cold nations (Germany invaded Russia<BR>
> during the _summer_, for example, not to mention the<BR>
> Middle East)<BR>
> Any theories on why? Maybe too much sun on their heads<BR>
> makes peopel crazy? Or maybe in Finalnd and<BR>
> Sqitzerland it's just too smegging cold to go out<BR>
> murdering people....<BR>
<BR>
With six Alaskan winters under my belt, I must say that the only people you<BR>
are tempted to murder are those snowed in with you.  Anyone else is a<BR>
welcome change. (Rule #47 - Never kill a guest.)<BR>
<BR>
In one of my Traveller campaigns, the players would stage a fight their<BR>
first day on planet - just to work out the last weeks<BR>
get-your-elbow-out-of-my-eye aggressions.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  What is the 'violence tendencies' of a group of Travellers?  Are<BR>
they more or less violent than normal dirt-dwellers?  Is this violence<BR>
directed at others, or at members of their own ships crew?<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:30:16 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
> From: Jesse DeGraff [mailto:jdegraff@pacbell.net]<BR>
<BR>
> The two girls that really enjoyed themselves were NOT paid <BR>
> for shooting, and<BR>
> actually had to pay to shoot like everyone else.  <BR>
<BR>
Indeed - and this is much more satisfying than the babes-with-guns videos.<BR>
<BR>
> I always <BR>
> enjoy seeing<BR>
> someone new to shooting sports, MALE OR FEMALE, enjoy <BR>
> themselves and get<BR>
> over the media induced anti-gun hype.  [Oops, kinda' slipped <BR>
> onto my soapbox<BR>
> for a second there!]<BR>
<BR>
S'Allright.  I'm holding a class Friday night at my house.  I've got three<BR>
friends I'm taking to the range Sat morning to shoot my AR-15s.  It'll be<BR>
the first time for all of them.  Class first - then range time.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Do people cooped up in starships tend to share hobbies and<BR>
interests, or do they go in opposite directions in order to get some 'mental<BR>
distance' to offset the forced physical closeness?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:30:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
At 01:59 AM 12/15/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry:<BR>
>>40 seconds is also about the time needed to blow through a single<BR>
>100-round belt.  Coincidence?  I think not!<BR>
<BR>
>gaaarglae....In the name of Humaniti! Not while I'm eating cereal!<BR>
>Anybody know how to clean Lucky Charms off the keyboard?<BR>
>Dan Roseberry (plop101) I've been PLOPED!<BR>
<BR>
<marking another name off a long list>  Soon, my quest will be finished...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:32:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Just testing...<BR>
<BR>
At 08:50 AM 12/15/1999 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
>...to see if this screws anyone's browser up....<BR>
<BR>
Not this time!  Thou hast slain the Attachment Beast!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:54:08 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
At 08:48 PM 12/14/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>For an interesting statement on this, read Brian Puckett's statement that he<BR>
>sent to the California Governer at<BR>
>http://www.guntruths.com/Puckett/why_i_will_not_obey_california.htm,<BR>
>specifically the guns covered by the 2nd Amendment.  If we did things TO THE<BR>
>LETTER AND INTENT OF THE CONSTITUTION, then every *law abiding* gun owner<BR>
>would own fully automatic weapons.<BR>
><BR>
>Best,<BR>
>Jesse<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
        He's a bit.... enthusiastic about his POV, eh?<BR>
        <BR>
        I personally don't understand the modern requirement for the US 2nd<BR>
Amendment, but then I am a Canuck.  That isn't flame-bait, its just me.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:57:30 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
At 09:53 PM 12/14/99, you wrote:<BR>
>At 07:09 PM 12/14/1999 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Hehe, who said "gun toting maniac" was an insult? I<BR>
>>was in the army, myself, always enjoyed carrying the<BR>
>>M-60. A fellow gunner said, "they say the average life<BR>
>>of a machine-gunnere in combat is - what? 40 seconds?<BR>
>>- but so what? it's 40 seconds of glory!"<BR>
><BR>
>40 seconds is also about the time needed to blow through a single 100-round<BR>
>belt.  Coincidence?  I think not!<BR>
>-- <BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
        "About damn time he ran out of ammo...  someone wanna squik that PIA?"<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:59:24 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Just testing...<BR>
<BR>
> >...to see if this screws anyone's browser up....<BR>
><BR>
>Not this time!  Thou hast slain the Attachment Beast!<BR>
<BR>
I get experience points for that right?  Oh hell, wrong game....<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:06:37 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kyle Schuant [mailto:kyle3054@yahoo.com]<BR>
<BR>
> Always wondered, though, if Jefferson would've written<BR>
> the 2nd Amendment if there'd been around AK-47s<BR>
> instead of just muskets that took a minute or two to<BR>
> load and were lucky to hit a man at a hundred yards!<BR>
<BR>
TJ didn't write the 2nd - or the Constitution.  TJ wrote the DoI - Madison<BR>
wrote the Constitution.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway - yep:<BR>
<BR>
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms<BR>
is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." <BR>
	-Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Anywya, are you sure that "the right to bear amrs, the<BR>
> right to form state militias, shall not be infringed",<BR>
> doesn't mean, "the right to bear arms, _that is_, the<BR>
> right to form state militias, shall not be infringed"?<BR>
<BR>
"A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,<BR>
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." -<BR>
The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution<BR>
<BR>
Either way, its a 'right of the people'. <BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:11:18<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
At 10:17 AM 12/15/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Also, remember, in the US a suppressor is regulated just like a<BR>
>fully-automatic firearm or destructive device ($200 tax, 6 month background<BR>
>check, local LEO permission, not valid in all states).  Yep, a metal pipe<BR>
>with washers in it - all by itself - is deemed by law a weapon as dangerous<BR>
>as a machine gun or a grenade.<BR>
<BR>
Considering the one home-made suppressor that blew up three feet from me,<BR>
I'll believe it.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
If someone is arrested for jaywalking or littering just<BR>
after midnight next New Year's Eve, for at least a minute<BR>
or two he will have committed the crime of the century. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:29:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Adventures with Security Folks<BR>
<BR>
> Bradley L Houston <brhoust@juno.com> wrote:<BR>
> >I was on a business trip with a co-worker.  We had to check out of our<BR>
> >hotel before work because we were leaving at the end of the day.  At the<BR>
> >Federal Building she had to unpack her suitcase to show the security<BR>
> >guard that what they saw on the scanner was really a hair dryer.  Of<BR>
> >course this is with a week's worth of dirty laundry...<BR>
> <BR>
In 1995 I was still living in Ohio but was travelling to California for an<BR>
anime convention, Anime Expo 95.  That summer was the height of the<BR>
Unabomber situation.<BR>
<BR>
I had a large box in my carry-on which had a picture of the contents:  a<BR>
Japanese electronic toy which is a plastic globe on a pink pedestal.<BR>
Inside the globe, sitting on a plastic throne, is a plastic figure of<BR>
Sailor Moon.  When you pass your hand over the top of the globe, Sailor<BR>
Moon tells your fortune in Japanese to the accompaniment of music and<BR>
flashing lights.  The directions for using the toy were on the outer part<BR>
of the box.  In Japanese, of course.<BR>
<BR>
The security personnel were unconvinced that the contents of the box were<BR>
a toy even though it was in the original packaging (I was bringing it to a<BR>
panel discussion I was part of and the original packaging really is the<BR>
best possible protection for it-- it cost me a lot of money to get here in<BR>
the US as the shipping was almost as much as the toy) and so they made me<BR>
remove it, put in the batteries, and demonstrate it for them.<BR>
<BR>
To the great amusement and irritation of others waiting in line.  Oh, and<BR>
Sailor Moon told the big burly security guard that his lucky color was<BR>
pink and he was about to meet the most wonderful boy!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:27:57 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
<BR>
> Considering the one home-made suppressor that blew up three <BR>
> feet from me,<BR>
> I'll believe it.<BR>
<BR>
Ever had a monitor go off in front of your face?<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:58:58 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:41:20 -0700<BR>
>From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
><BR>
>>> And Daedalus was automated in spite of a hundred-year<BR>
>>> mission duration; NASA can't even build something autonamous<BR>
>>> that can manage to land on Mars...<BR>
>><BR>
>>That's because Congress keeps cutting NASA's budget, just like they did 20<BR>
>>years ago with the space shuttle. If NASA were given its just due, it<BR>
would<BR>
>>certainly be capable of properly designing spacecraft to do the job RIGHT.<BR>
><BR>
>Let's not give NASA too much credit here. NASA is a great example of now<BR>
>NOT to run a space program -- it's so over-laden with bureaucracy that<BR>
>anything it does is inefficient and costs way too much. The typical space<BR>
>shuttle launch has a ground crew in the neighbourhood of 20,000 people.<BR>
><BR>
>If transatlantic plane service were run like the shuttle program, there<BR>
>would be one flight per month, there would be delays of several days if<BR>
>there was so much as one little thing wrong at startup, and a ticket would<BR>
>cost a million dollars.<BR>
<BR>
Space launch vehicles are much more likely to go up in a ball of<BR>
vapour if something goes wrong than a 777. Most of the time if something<BR>
goes wrong on an airplane you can continue the flight or land at the<BR>
nearest airport whereas with a rocket something going wrong is<BR>
extremely likely to result in catastrophic failure (ie fireball in the sky.)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I say it's time for private enterprise to get into the game.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody who believes that private companies are automatically<BR>
efficient hasn't been reading their Dilbert cartoons. (yes they are just<BR>
comics but they are only funny because they are so true.)<BR>
<BR>
I know of no law - In the US at least - that restricts any private<BR>
individual<BR>
(or corporation for that matter) from engaging in space launch.<BR>
The reasons "private enterprise" hasn't gotten into the space game<BR>
on a free lance basis is that nobody can figure out how to do it<BR>
less expensively than the "ineficient government bueraucracy."<BR>
<BR>
Mind you if Boeing or Lockmart or Ford or somebody does get pasenger<BR>
service going I'd be willing to pay for a ticket. Even if they have a much<BR>
higher than NASA failure rate.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Mind you, the spectacle of China sending someone to the moon may give<BR>
>the US space program the wake-up call it needs...<BR>
<BR>
And if it doesn't I may have to learn Mandarin so I can get in on the<BR>
action.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada<BR>
>cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
>        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
>                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Old version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
the world will beat a path to your door.<BR>
New version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
some @$*% will build a better mouse.<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1499<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (rly-yg05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.5]) by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:55:13 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (v66.4) with ESMTP; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:54:38 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA75748;<BR>
	Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:53:57 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:53:50 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA75710<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:53:50 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:53:50 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912151853.NAA75710@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1499<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
